What’s Wrong with the World

The men signed of the cross of Christ go gaily in the dark.

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What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: the Jihad and Liberalism...read more

Recent Comments

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 4, 17:53:

Here's an interestingly appalling thought: what did the ancient Hebrews do about an unwed mother before delivery? Did they kill her outright? If so, hey killed the baby. If they let her live until the baby was born (seems unlikely, but...) and then killed her, who took the baby? Was the baby just classed in the category "orphan" and dealt with that way? But generally orphans had known parents and were not stigmatized as illegitimate, whereas a baby born out of wedlock was illegitimate. ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 17:41:

Jeff, I fail to see how that has anything to do with my "hobby horse." Especially since it was started by Rush Limbaugh to attack the sort of people who Lydia is talking about. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 4, 16:52:

By the way, w.r.t. some of what Tony's research turned up, I trust that we can all agree that putting a young child into indentured servitude is not a form of adoption and is not desirable. This all fits into what I was saying about history: My strong perception is that historically western society only really got its act together fairly recently as far as making it relatively easy for an unwed mother to place her child for adoption with a loving, married couple. See this, for example, on the horrors of "b ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 4, 16:47:

Let's see: I am a kleptomaniac-Christian. As such, I am only truly "comfortable" when I am in the process of stealing things. Your role, as a welcoming and inviting Christian, is to give me room to express my kleptomania on occasion, as the mood strikes me, so that I can be comfortable with myself. When you see me taking gold from the altar, don't ruffle my feathers. When you assign me to room with somebody at camp, don't tell them to put all their valuables under lock and key - think how uncomfortable ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Jeffrey S. on Aug 4, 15:41:

Mike T. Oy Vey! Must you pollute every one of Lydia's posts with your hobby horse of the day, that has only the most tenuous link to the topic! I'm probably one of your biggest fans here at W4, but please -- give it a rest! And yes, I'm well aware of the meme (I troll the neo-reactionary websites daily) and for those who really want to learn more, this is the place to get caught up: http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-73/ [I find "Outside in" a generally good place for 'mainstream' neo-reactionary ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 4, 14:52:

Right: while we are in the depths of degenerate society, there will be any number of horrendous unintended results from trying to apply rules that would be reasonable in a healthier state. If we didn't have SSM, and didn't allow adoptions to gays at all, Mike's comment wouldn't run into the problem Lydia points out. One possible explanation for the contractual issues is that society in general is increasingly sympathetic to arguments about how much consent was involved, whether you can "sign away your r ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 14:36:

WRT gay adoption, I have a feeling that we are going to see something like the Rotterham scandal hit at least one English-speaking country before it's all said and done. ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 14:28:

In fact, by that logic bullies who push gender-confused folks to suicide are doing them a favor because it's just expediting the process of them being "made well in the presence of God." ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Tamsin on Aug 4, 13:27:

But Christians believe that God holds that person and each and every chapter in his hands, until that person arrives at their true end—when gender and soul are made well in the presence of God. Whoa. I would say his whole argument actually starts from this premise, in which case, nothing we do here matters; and so, for instance, I can be as mean as I want to Sara, because my meanness will be made well in the presence of God. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 4, 13:25:

Giving the mother no choice on how to structure an adoption would make it easier. But there is an unfortunate aspect to that, if we're talking now about the existing legal situation, not a more ideal situation: Homosexual adoption. Some years ago I was electronically acquainted with someone in New Zealand who had a pregnancy out of wedlock in the family. I asked whether the family would encourage the mother to place the baby for adoption. The reply was that they were not, and one reason was that under NZ ... [More]

Putting "redemption" before integrity

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 13:21:

I am continually confounded by the speed with which Christians are rushing to accommodate the craziest innovations of our time. It cannot be said too often: You cannot allow the fear of being thought mean to drive your policies, or you are a sitting duck for the manipulation of the left. I don't know if you heard about it, but there's a meme started by Rush Limbaugh and that expanded big time online that has a lot of quasi-conservatives outraged. It's the "cuckolded conservative" or "cuckservative" pejorat ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 12:33:

One possible explanation for the contractual issues is that society in general is increasingly sympathetic to arguments about how much consent was involved, whether you can "sign away your rights" and such. It's my understanding that even most reasonable prenups are effectively unenforceable in most areas. That is to say, if you had a rule that said if either party cheats they get only the assets they brought in, many a judge would just shred it if a cheating wife claimed it would cause her suffering and ha ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 4, 12:15:

has your research indicated that in the older western societies where the child born out of wedlock was regarded as akin to an orphan, etc., the baby didn't actually _live_ with the mother? No, my original research was ambiguous on this but I didn't notice. It indicated that for a considerable times the welfare of the child was considered a community problem (with, for example, the care of the "Guardians of the Poor"). Now that I look more closely, it does appear that usually the child - when the mother ... [More]

The flood of evidence against Planned Parenthood

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 4, 12:07:

For the vast reach of the commerce clause as attached to federal legislation, see, inter alia, Wickard v. Filburn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn ... [More]

The flood of evidence against Planned Parenthood

Comment posted by Anonymous on Aug 4, 11:54:

Lydia - "All of this 'affects' interstate commerce. That is a very broad clause and has been used to regulate all commerce in other federal laws." This isn't obvious to me. Could you expound on this? I can imagine some liberals trying to justify PP's actions by claiming it doesn't affect interstate commerce. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 11:04:

What, in your mind, is the principle on which any one of these men ought to have custody? I don't think they have any principled right. I am saying that as a strategy, attacking the custody rights of unmarried men is bad policy until the rights of married men are fundamentally resecured under law. Irrespective of the fact that it's not good to conflate the rights of married and unmarried men, it's simply impolitic given the reality of the legal system. Do remember that I am of a mind that unwed mothers no ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 10:55:

e're terrified to make such arguments lest the girl get an abortion, and the sad thin is, in our society as it is, we might be right to worry about that. Which is a bit weird since social conservatives tend to take a hard stance on negotiating with criminals, terrorists, foreign enemy states, etc. In fact, conservatives of all sorts tend to greatly disdain the tendency of European states to pay ransoms to Islamic groups to get their citizens back. Obviously, if negotiating or being held emotionally hostage ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 4, 10:48:

I was referring to option C, letting unmarried women put a baby up for adoption without the father's consent or ability to adopt and generally reducing the paternal rights of unmarried men. I think you might be surprised that even option b) might generate some controversy because rape has been so badly expanded and politicized that you are as likely to deny paternity rights to a man who had drunken sex with a woman as you are to a forcible rapist. Mike, this a worthwhile debate point. Let's pursue it. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 4, 08:25:

Trying to get back to the actual topic of the OP: Tony, has your research indicated that in the older western societies where the child born out of wedlock was regarded as akin to an orphan, etc., the baby didn't actually _live_ with the mother? I find that surprising, if for no other reason than that it would be turning away a perfectly good wet nurse in a world without baby formula. My impression (admittedly vague and derived largely from older fiction) is that adoption as we know it is a relatively rece ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 4, 08:05:

Yeah, quoting Zippy Catholic (tm) is likely to make ME stop and re-think my position. Let's not go ad hominem. I quoted it because it was concise and made the point. It also has the benefit for others of being from someone who is a critic of the manosphere. (b) that a rapist male can claim paternity rights (whether he pays child support or not), and (c) that sperm donors can be charged for child support given our current view of the behavior. These are pandering to women? Get a grip, Mike. I was referri ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 3, 19:37:

Yeah, quoting Zippy Catholic (tm) is likely to make ME stop and re-think my position. Real good idea there. Because, you know, Zippy is my GREAT PAL and holds me in the highest esteem, and vice versa. is also why you are going to find minimal support for anything that further erodes real or perceived rights for men. If conservatives want to make headway on issues like dealing with IVF and sperm banks (as you proposed here), they'll first have to gain some serious street cred on standing up for and tryi ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 3, 11:00:

Tony, This sort of issue is also why you are going to find minimal support for anything that further erodes real or perceived rights for men. If conservatives want to make headway on issues like dealing with IVF and sperm banks (as you proposed here), they'll first have to gain some serious street cred on standing up for and trying to strengthen men's rights. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 3, 08:27:

In a discussion at Orthosphere, Zippy made a comment that sums up my frustration with people like you and Lydia on these issues: My own impression is that society at large relentlessly excuses the failures of women. The manosphere does focus on the failures of women, but that is a tiny droplet in a cultural bucket radically biased in favor of excusing female fault. Calls for “balance” or “fairness” in presentation have the effect of telling people to shut up, since it isn’t possible to talk about everythi ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 2, 16:39:

I think we can (hopefully) all agree with Spengler's Universal Law of Gender Parity: In every corner of the world and in every epoch of history, the men and women of every culture deserve each other. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 2, 16:31:

Tony, Ideally, society wants adequate disincentives for all aspects of adultery, not just one or two. Before we get an ideal culture, of course, there will be gaps ans lapses. I agree. And my hammering on some of these points is to bring out aspects that the system should be addressing. One of those is that it is easier for a woman to deny her husband the ability to pass on his genes than it is the other way around. And, since this thread isn't about that issue, give it a rest already. This thread has ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 2, 15:38:

the existence of socio-sexual hierarchy Mike, give it a rest. Every comment of yours that depends critically and essentially on this "hierarchy" just makes me want to close the thread. I can accept that there is, in fact, a _kind_ of a hierarchy (though I would use a different paradigm to name and describe it), without accrediting it the kinds of motive power you (and the manosphere) credit it with. I just know too many partners (married and unmarried) that don't fall into the patterns implied by that ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 2, 11:41:

The only way for a woman to be in a similar situation is to have a cheating husband who will not have sex with her. Or will have sex with her and give her STDs. Good option there, of course. Because we are biological beings, the urge to pass on to the future children of your own flesh and blood is great. But it is not the ONLY human drive that marriage deals with. Which is borne out by parents who, unable to have kids of their own, adopt. (And incidentally by parents who, able to have kids of their ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 2, 06:26:

It will usually be true that in a society the women are more likely to be closer to chastity than the men - it takes a very strenuous effort toward degradation to change that. To the extent that the women use this standing to call the men toward virtue, society may have hope that they will improve. That's true with certain caveats. The level of "slut shaming" historically has been at levels that would make even most modern conservative women scream "stop being so judgmental." Social science has actually di ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 2, 06:16:

Are you nuts? Have you fallen for the crass worldly concept of "harm" or "loss"? And would you say the same of a wife who engages in non-coital adultery? that her husband suffers no loss? I was referring to harm/loss in the financial/genetic sense because... 1. A woman who cannot enforce a child support claim inflicts no financial loss or material harm on the wife. 2. Another woman carrying her husband's baby does not prevent her from having children of her own. Bear in mind that if a woman bears the chi ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 1, 23:06:

I am hesitating about whether to add a further clarification to your clarification to the effect that the adulterous wife has done that particular evil to her own husband, to whom she swore a solemn oath of life-long fidelity, and to her own children in undermining their father's confidence in his relationship with them; whereas the man with whom she committed adultery has done objectively the same evil to folks that are not members of his own family. I was careful in what I said was equal. The harm done ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 1, 23:03:

Christopher, I do as it happens disagree with Jeremy Taylor on point 2, and I believe that he says it both because he is focused too much upon bastardy in a family and, as regards the consequences of violations of peace, murders, etc., because he is not giving due attention to the basic fact that it takes two to tango. Moreover, as I said to Mike T., there are a variety of ways in which even in terms of consequences and even if one restricts oneself to discussing those consequences which are in some respect ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Christopher McCartney on Aug 1, 21:57:

Lydia: I have no complaints about your treatment of Mike T., given all of the off-the-wall things he has said. But Jeremy Taylor, for instance, deserves a more open minded hearing. In The Rule and Exercise of Holy Living he asks, Whether is worse, the adultery of the man or the woman? ... (1.) in respect of the person, the fault is greater in a man than in a woman, who is of a more pliant and easy spirit, and weaker understanding, and hath nothing to supply the unequal strengths of men, but the defensative ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Christopher McCartney on Aug 1, 21:02:

Mike T: If a man impregnates a woman he meets in a bar in the bar's bathroom and leaves (and thus she can't track him down), his wife suffers no loss. Are you nuts? Have you fallen for the crass worldly concept of "harm" or "loss"? And would you say the same of a wife who engages in non-coital adultery? that her husband suffers no loss? Let me give your words a more charitable interpretation than I think they deserve: I'll assume you mean she suffers no loss from the pregnancy as narrowly distinguished fr ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Christopher McCartney on Aug 1, 21:01:

Tony (6:25): I agree on all points. I am hesitating about whether to add a further clarification to your clarification to the effect that the adulterous wife has done that particular evil to her own husband, to whom she swore a solemn oath of life-long fidelity, and to her own children in undermining their father's confidence in his relationship with them; whereas the man with whom she committed adultery has done objectively the same evil to folks that are not members of his own family. I say I am hesitati ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 1, 20:53:

It is very important that men have confidence that the children born to their wives are their own children. This is true. I find it particularly humorous that liberals are so all-fired in favor of evolutionary theory - which utterly supports the above statement - and yet have absolutely no willingness to allow evolutionary theory to have a say in this regard. They absolutely deny that THEY are bound by anything that evolution has handed to mankind - that's all for other people, not them. Men DO care ... [More]

Planned Parenthood delenda est

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 1, 20:35:

to spend the rest of their lives in a Syrian prison being used to train successive generations of torturers. Well, we can hope, can't we? Maybe we can get together with Doctors Without Borders and "volunteer" these PP doctors to help Syrian displaced civilians. Shouldn't take long after that. ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Tony on Aug 1, 20:32:

Actually go interact with secular millennials. Ugh. Do I have to? What do I get out of it? What's in it for me? You'll find that the reason many of the guys have turned to porn is that it is significantly harder for an ordinary man to appeal to a woman who's had a taste or two of the sort of men who, a few generations ago, would have barely said hello to her because he'd have focused his energy on getting a hard 9 out of 10 or better for a wife Instead of the ordinary (chaste) guys trying to appea ... [More]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Comment posted by Lydia on Aug 1, 20:28:

No, actually, I see the turn to porn *itself* as an enormous "harm to society." And frankly, I am made almost physically ill by the "explanation" that porn use is caused by women who won't marry the poor, poor betas who turn to it as a consolation prize. But Mike, I really won't debate this kind of thing with you. I could start trying to answer your shallow talking points about how society is more hurt by male infidelity than by female. Just in the course of one trip to the grocery store I came up with thr ... [More]

Planned Parenthood delenda est

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 1, 20:03:

usually just repeat talking points My generation is the result of the cosmic irony that the Prussian model of education used to create a pliable, unthinking workforce for an industrializing economy finally reached its goal at a point where illegal immigrants and robots could do most of that work for less than the cost of educating them. ... [More]

Planned Parenthood delenda est

Comment posted by Mike T on Aug 1, 20:01:

One of the greatest tragedies of our modern legal system is that there exists no process which could lawfully send these people off to spend the rest of their lives in a Syrian prison being used to train successive generations of torturers. ... [More]