What’s Wrong with the World

The men signed of the cross of Christ go gaily in the dark.

About

What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: the Jihad and Liberalism...read more

Recent Comments

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by Joe Lightfoot on May 26, 02:13:

JW Wenham's Easter Enigma is an excellent book that gives very plausible harmonizations of the resurrection accounts. Doubtless it would be considered by the enlightened purveyors of modern criticism as a benighted throwback to English scholarship from the 18th and 19th centuries (even though the work was published in the 50s or 60s IIRC). It's a book I think my namesake could have heartily endorsed. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by steve hays on May 25, 20:40:

I believe John had three sons: Gordon, David, and Peter. Gordon became an OT scholar while David become a NT scholar. Don't know what Peter became. As I recall, it was David who cared for his father in his final years. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 20:11:

Ah, well, I'm sure my saying that, like my citing Leathes and Drummond, actually just shows that I'm "out of date" in New Testament studies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eAQa4MOGkE ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Callum on May 25, 19:26:

As someone great once said, if I sample a loaf of bread at one end, and the other, as well as multiple places in between, I should conclude the whole loaf is fresh rather than just the parts I have sampled ;) ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Sean on May 25, 17:36:

You're welcome. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 16:16:

Wenham's argument at that point also shows the extremely one-sided and biased treatment that John gets, even among conservative scholars. After all, given the "composite" view that so many scholars take toward the Sermon on the Mount, why not go the other direction? Why not say that the saying to Thomas was far closer to ipsissima verba and that Matthew changed it and included it in a composite of Jesus' sayings in the Sermon on the Mount? Or why not say, more harmonistically, that Jesus said something long ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 16:10:

By the way, for readers who don't know, that article is by David Wenham, not by John Wenham, author of Easter Enigma. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 16:09:

It's a pretty good article until the end. Toward the end Wenham begins doing a sort of "on the one hand, but on the other hand" thing in which he will start by giving a sort of Leathes-style argument that John's accounts are historical and dovetail with the concepts taught by Jesus in the synoptics. But then he'll stop and suggest that it could equally well be explained by one of these (sigh) broad ipsissima vox "paraphrase" things where what is *clearly* a different incident in John is a so-called "paraphr ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post III--Back to the positive evidence

Comment posted by steve hays on May 25, 12:23:

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_historical_dwenham.html ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 11:08:

Okay, one more post on the historicity of evangelicalism and the acceptance of literary device theories: Another baneful influence in all of this has been the criteriological approach. Evans and Ehrman actually get quite chummy over this in the debate, presenting themselves as the scholars instructing the masses. And Evans expressly states, in a part I didn't transcribe, that if a passage doesn't meet "the criteria," then the default position on its historicity is agnosticism. Both Blomberg and Carson ha ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Ben on May 25, 10:43:

Thanks Sean! A transcript is quite helpful to someone like me. Ben, your quotations bring me again to reflect, as I have often reflected recently, on this fact: The apostles who wrote canonical epistles (Paul, John, Peter) are deeply concerned with protecting the church from false doctrine. What one never sees them doing is trying to protect those who are teaching falsely from backlash. One never sees Paul saying, "Now, now, while it's true that the Judaizers are teaching falsely that the Gentiles have to ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 09:31:

Sean, I've made your transcript available further via Facebook. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 09:07:

Okay, so I'll try to shorten this up, in answer to Tony's question. I simply don't know how many putative evangelicals by the time of Gundry were already on the side of higher criticism, but his ouster from the ETS is some indication that the group dynamics hadn't swung over to that side yet. But the fact that there was controversy indicates the way the wind was blowing. More important, the dependence on inerrancy alone created sociological difficulties, though in terms of process that was the only thing hi ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 00:41:

How does this rot get its nose in the door when the in-group loyalty SHOULD have worked against it, at the start? I would say to no small part (in Protestantism--I can't speak as much to Catholicism) it was because of sociological forces related to the intersection of concepts like fundamentalism, evangelicalism, and inerrancy. The in-group loyalty that worked against it for a little while was founded on the importance of inerrancy. Inerrancy was put forward as primarily a religious doctrine, and schola ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 25, 00:21:

Whoa, Sean, pretty cool, thank you! ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Sean on May 24, 23:48:

By the way, here's a link to a transcript of the entire discussion from the 18th: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DRVsnODNLh_U2d-2ZY5MXJ3B4zcNJqZ7 If anyone wants to improve the format, go right ahead. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Tony on May 24, 23:33:

Because humans are social creatures, loyalty to the in-group is natural. True, Steve, but it still leads to the question: why? Only 30 or so years ago (or was it 40), the in-group of "conservative, evangelical" NT scholars would not countenance these ideas of "paraphrase" (meaning "made up out of almost whole cloth") and chreia implying re-working Jesus' own words into new sayings, not only because these ideas create all sorts of theological time-bombs, but because they are dirt-poor models of NT analysi ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by steve hays on May 24, 22:36:

There's a circular principle here. If few people of note are prepared to publicly criticize positions of Evans, Wallace, Licona et al, then the critics stick out due to their fewness. That, however, is not an indictment of the few, but the many who refuse to do their duty. In WWII, there were few people who sheltered Jews compared to those who played it safe. As a result, those who sheltered Jews stand out. The question, though, isn't the conduct of those who sheltered Jews, but the conduct of their neigh ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 20:47:

Joshua, if we've gotten to the point where it is impossible to ask them a question and get an answer, no matter how we go on and on and on describing the scene, no matter what qualifiers we add, then (as I'm sure you'd agree, based on the rest of your comment) these people are hopeless cases. They can't be communicated with. And nobody should be listening to them. To say that they don't understand the question at this point, no matter how hard one tries to make it clear, is to say that they are intellectual ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 20:38:

Ben, your quotations bring me again to reflect, as I have often reflected recently, on this fact: The apostles who wrote canonical epistles (Paul, John, Peter) are deeply concerned with protecting the church from false doctrine. What one never sees them doing is trying to protect those who are teaching falsely from backlash. One never sees Paul saying, "Now, now, while it's true that the Judaizers are teaching falsely that the Gentiles have to be circumcised to gain salvation, I went to rabbi school with se ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Joshua on May 24, 20:36:

Given the cloud of confusion he seems to be putting up, I wonder if there’s another option as to why he answered your question about John the way he did: 4. He genuinely didn’t understand the question. I have to confess that didn’t find the “in addition to the Synoptics” phrasing of your question particularly clear, and I agree with you and have read all your posts about this. If I understand it correctly, your aim was something like “Is this scene just John’s version of an event also recorded in the Syn ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 20:20:

Joe: Thanks for the reference. I am chagrined to admit that I haven't read Morris, but on the upside, I have it to look forward to! Tony: You should read some of his defenders. They're even worse. One of them (also an ardent defender of Licona) recently accused me of being uncharitable for assuming that Evans's 2012 comments applied to the two statements I asked about rather than that they might well be exempt per his "most of" qualifier and writing to him personally to find out. But it never occurs to thi ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Joe Lightfoot on May 24, 20:10:

If anybody wants to see a good example of careful scholarship on John, I cannot highly enough recommend Leon Morris' Studies in the Fourth Gospel. There, he has essays dealing with (among other things) the authorship of the fourth gospel, the role and place of eyewitness testimony in the fourth gospel, as well as other interesting points regarding overall reliability of the fourth gospel. I think the book is out of print, but I found it for $5 a few years ago and it is a treasure on my bookshelf. Morris' ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Ben on May 24, 19:40:

Drawing an intellectual and scholarly parallel: Evans = Professor Wither, in That Hideous Strength. The convoluted phrasings, the asserting and then peeling it back with qualifiers so that it means nothing at all, the "inside" codes that are finally based on nothing at all ("in light of the Easter event"), the rambles that get nowhere actually though you cannot ever realize that in the moment but only by retrospect. All in service of a thesis that, if stated baldly, everyone would reject out of hand and w ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Tony on May 24, 19:17:

Drawing an intellectual and scholarly parallel: Evans = Professor Wither, in That Hideous Strength. The convoluted phrasings, the asserting and then peeling it back with qualifiers so that it means nothing at all, the "inside" codes that are finally based on nothing at all ("in light of the Easter event"), the rambles that get nowhere actually though you cannot ever realize that in the moment but only by retrospect. All in service of a thesis that, if stated baldly, everyone would reject out of hand ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 17:01:

Yeah, I thought that was a rather odd jargony way of saying "in light of the resurrection." Not only that, but any use of "true in the light of" as a special form of "truth" to apply to recorded sayings is pretty obviously code for, "It didn't really happen in history in any way that you could have recognized if you'd been there watching. This is what they thought of later, and it's 'true' in the sense that it's theologically 'true,' not that it's historically true." But with the transliterated phrase "ch ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 16:55:

Does he, or others who take his view consider the fact that the Synoptic authors didn't recognize the importance of these and so didn't focus on them much, but John gleaned the importance of them (in light of Wisdom literature, or, as I've seen others say, God's saying "I am . . ." frequently in Isaiah (40 - 55 off of the top of my head)? Well, for "Before Abraham was, I am," that really can't be the reason, since *everybody* standing around understands it and the crowd gets really angry and tries to ston ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Sean on May 24, 16:42:

also "fact" in "consider the fact" should be "possibility". ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 16:29:

I would like to add to what I said in the post, in case anyone misses it, that the term "discourses" occurs nowhere in the dialogue with Ehrman about the I am sayings, neither uttered by Ehrman nor by Evans. Ehrman asks about *sayings*, not discourses. Neither of them so much as *brings up* the question of whether lengthy discourses were uttered "top to bottom." So Evans's statement that the "only point" he was making to Bart concerned the transcription of long discourses is not only false but *blatantly* f ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Sean on May 24, 16:29:

"very true in the light of the Easter event" Yeah, I thought that was a rather odd jargony way of saying "in light of the resurrection." Now, you mention that he makes much of the argument for silence - that the Synoptics don't have Jesus saying "I am . . ." and caution that this isn't enough to say that John is "paraphrasing" (in Craig's sense) what Christ says. Does he, or others who take his view consider the fact that the Synoptic authors didn't recognize the importance of these and so didn't focus on ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 14:55:

I would say though that he's really pretty committed to using this "chreia" thing and references to "the pedagogic practices of the time" as a wedge. It's something he's moving forward with, not at all just a matter of making careless comments. I haven't seen his recent documentary movie, but I'm told that his wacked-out interpretation of Matthew 13:52 was somehow brought up somewhere in there. He seems to mention it at every possible opportunity. One gets the impression that at this point he wants to be fa ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by steve hays on May 24, 14:51:

Evans is a gifted scholar, but that carries the risk (to which some succumb) that when your scholarship makes you famous, you get lots of invitations, and if you accept too many invitations, you're coasting on the research that made you famous rather than widening and deepening your research. You begin forgetting things and winging it. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 13:56:

Heh. Well, that was one loooong gaffe. :-) He came back to it repeatedly in Q & A, voluntarily, and said more and more to the same effect. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post II

Comment posted by steve hays on May 24, 13:40:

Evans committed a political gaffe in the original debate with Ehrman: http://politicaldictionary.com/words/gaffe/ ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Ben on May 24, 11:36:

Craig Evans at least *did* the debate. Licona declined it. This is the result of one of the only bits of engagement there has been from a well-known advocate of a literary device view, and let's just say that the quality of the arguments on his side left a great deal to be desired. And there was some gratuitous condescension thrown in in the course of it. The underlined is the kind of thing that really bugs me, but it always shows up if anyone dares speak out against some of the nonsense posing itself as s ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 10:54:

Tony Costa, thank you! Right--in other words, Jesus *himself* might easily have applied OT themes or Scriptures to himself, so that is hardly evidence that he did not personally and historically utter something. I am about to post Part II of my analysis. Part III will be entirely a survey of the positive evidence I was able to bring out in the debate, even under somewhat adverse rhetorical circumstances. ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Tony Costa on May 24, 10:37:

Hi Lydia. I think you did a great job. I found Dr.Evans was back peddling on his comments that he issued in his debate with Dr.Ehrman. What I heard on Unbelievable radio and what he said to Ehrman appeared very different. Evans' argument on John utilizing Sophia or Wisdom motifs in his portrait of Jesus in his gospel I think was weak. In Luke 24:27,44 Jesus taught His disciples to read and interpret the Old Testament through Christological lenses. They were to read and understand it in a Christotelic fashi ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Lydia on May 24, 00:19:

It will be interesting when your work is directly addressed with the time and respect it deserves. At this rate, that will be a flying pig moment. I do not expect it to happen at all from any of these players in the game. Craig Evans at least *did* the debate. Licona declined it. This is the result of one of the only bits of engagement there has been from a well-known advocate of a literary device view, and let's just say that the quality of the arguments on his side left a great deal to be desired. And t ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Joe Lightfoot on May 23, 23:40:

If even purportedly conservative or evangelical NT scholarship casts aspersions on thinking of the gospels as consistently and accurately describing events and words of Jesus and others, where (outside of some subjective experience or action by God) is the force of the testimony to point somebody to the conclusion that this Jesus was not just an interesting character or a sage fellow, but was (in fact) "the word made flesh" who in the beginning was with God and was God? One may as well (it seems) be mildly ... [More]

Dancing with the distinguished professor--Post I

Comment posted by Lydia on May 23, 22:55:

I thought about that for a while. I assume that anything one tried in that regard would be met by Evans with a shocked face and something like, "But didn't you understand? The paraphrase is supposed to be true to the original meaning! And since this *is* the original meaning, well, then..." But a little imagination allows one to press the point. Suppose that the historical saying were, "The kingdom of heaven is like a house filled with things both old and new." And Matthew added the bit about the scribe in ... [More]