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What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: the Jihad and Liberalism...read more

Not ready for civilization--the next chapter

I've been meaning to put this up since the earlier version appeared on Dhimmi Watch: In England, female Muslim medical students are now objecting to the requirement that they scrub their arms up to the elbow. This would require them to "expose" their arms to the elbow in public. To get them clean.

The authorities have already provided them with special changing areas, but that isn't enough. They want a note saying they don't have to scrub. Some say they'd rather quit the medical course than give up on this matter of high principle--unscrubbed forearms for medical work. As one commentator on Dhimmi Watch said, it sounds like a plan. Letting them quit the course, that is. Better than returning to pre-Lister and Pasteur.

What's the betting the powers that be give in on this one and allow them just to cover up their unscrubbed forearms with long gloves instead, as was suggested here? By the Islamic Medical Association. Natch.

Now can we think again about Muslim immigration?

HT Dhimmi Watch

Comments (18)

I'd like to bet on the Brits, but I'm afraid to anymore.

Also, I don't think they should be allowed to quit the course. They should be thrown out.

I anticipate a capitulation on this one: what are deaths due to infectious disease by comparison to the unassailable, irreproachable dignity of The Other, who, because he is other than we are, is noble and ready to receive our obeisance?

This episode combines two of the worst traits of European modernity, namely, the myth of the "noble savage", in which European civilization has been wallowing for a few centuries now (perhaps since Montaigne), and guilty, self-flagellating abasement before Islam, a psychological will-to-dhimmitude.

It doesn't seem very fair to take a few nutty Muslims to represent millions. There is a reason American Muslims aren't as funny about stuff as American Muslims. Our system works, so far anyway, in that we allow assimilation and social equality, no matter religion or race. Muslims in the UK still suffer from social stigma, no matter how hard they work and advance economically. There are far right groups who would like to end this but I hope they a drowned out in good American common sense. The Irish or Germans before in our historical past have been looked upon just as xenophobically. The miners in California use to catch Chinese with long pony tails and cut them off.

So, let me get this straight: These female medical students are refusing to roll their sleeves up to their elbows and wash, they have that little concern and respect for one of the fundamental principles of modern medicine, because they suffer from social stigma? And that's also the reason why the Islamic Medical Association defends their actions and proposes hygienically inferior alternatives, stating that no one, male or female, not even a doctor or nurse, should be required by work rules to roll up his sleeves to the elbow, even to wash? They are nutty like this, and in apparently larger numbers than "a few" (the article names several places at which this is a problem with multiple students), because of discrimination? So if the UK just kow-towed to them _more_, made them feel more _accepted_, removed any social stigma from them, they'd change their crazy world-view and agree to wash their forearms and keep their sleeves off their wrists, where they can collect and spread germs?

Gosh, I just had never put the pieces of the puzzle together that way.

Lydia,

From all that I have read, the Muslims have been humiliated by our culture and the success of Western Civilization. Any culture in this situation will have some members react in different ways. Some will totally embrace their religion and want to reject the apparent intruder. I don't agree with them not following science and safety issues and personally, I'd tell them to hit the road. Is it so hard to see that every Muslim country has been subject to European occupiers and unwanted foreign intrigue. In Iran, Western culture under the Shah was seen as a threat to their identity and self pride. In the US, I'd guess there are thousands of Muslim professionals who shudder to think of operating in a manner espoused by those many nurse wanna bees in the UK.

An interesting article can be found here.

The Arab world's sense of pride is hurt not only by military inferiority to the West. Far worse is the impact of intellectual and material dependency. In the last 400 years, not a single noteworthy invention can be credited to the Arabs. Rudolph Chimelli quotes one Iraqi author as saying: "If an Arab had invented the steam engine in the 18th century, it would not have been built." No historian would contradict him. This means that for any Arab who cares to think about it, the very objects on which everyday life in the Maghreb and the Middle East depends represent an unspoken humiliation - every refrigerator, every telephone, every electrical socket, every screwdriver, not to mention hi-tech products. Even the parasitic oil states, frittering away their future security, are obliged to import the requisite technology from abroad; without Western geologists, drilling experts, civil engineers, tankers and refineries, they would not even be capable of exploiting their own resources. In this light, even their wealth is a curse that constantly reminds them of their dependency. Not including the revenue from crude oil, the economic performance of the entire Arab world today counts for less than that of a single Finnish telecommunications company.

I don't have my picture of the world's tiniest violin playing, Russ. I'm glad you'd tell the nurses to hit the road. But if you think anything you are saying is some sort of excuse or mitigation for the crazy behavior of these Muslims, then you're really reaching. A feeling of material inferiority? Aw, shucks. Poor folks. They should get cracking then and make their own technology, then, if using our light sockets hurts their psyches so much. It's not like Saudi Arabia is poor. I just laugh at that quoted paragraph, insofar as it's supposed to make me feel bad. Feeling guilty for doing things better than other people is one of those ridiculous liberal tropes that cuts not the slightest ice with me. They should be grateful for Western contributions to the world, which are available for them to buy and use.

And frankly, this is just another argument against Muslim immigration. If Muslim immigrants are really filled with some childish sense of resentment because Thomas Edison invented the light bulb and their countries have to import Western technology, and if this kind of resentment is somehow "causing" them to do crazy things--from refusing to wash forearms before surgery to teaching their children to hate the West to rioting over cartoons to suicide bombings--then the fewer of such people we import the better.

Go, Lydia!

Preach it, sister!

Lydia,

.. and if this kind of resentment is somehow "causing" them to do crazy things--from refusing to wash forearms before surgery to teaching their children to hate the West to rioting over cartoons to suicide bombings--then the fewer of such people we import the better.

There's our problem. Where you see teaming masses of childish American hating thugs, I see in large part a typical immigrant wishing to have the American dream. They don't teach their children to hate. After 9/11 the response to the terrorist was one of shame and condemnation. Mexicans are next on the list I suppose, they eat goats don't you know.

Can't make up your mind, Russ, it seems. After all, if you're just talking about a typical immigrant wishing to have the American dream, then why bring up this "sense of inferiority" in this context? _You're_ the one who implied some sort of relevance; _I'm_ not.

From all that I have read, the Muslims have been humiliated by our culture and the success of Western Civilization. Any culture in this situation will have some members react in different ways. Some will totally embrace their religion and want to reject the apparent intruder. I don't agree with them not following science and safety issues and personally, I'd tell them to hit the road. Is it so hard to see that every Muslim country has been subject to European occupiers and unwanted foreign intrigue.

In other words, you're implying that the behavior described in the main post is somehow a result of an inferiority complex and a feeling of humiliation. My reaction to that is to say, "If that's the case, then let's definitely not have people around who are going to feel this way and react in this way." At which point you revert to saying that you aren't talking about people who behave this way. But I thought you were: You were saying that Muslims behave in the way described in the main post because we make them feel humiliated.

Lydia,

I'd be tempted to say conservatives and libs just are bound not to understand each other, but as my wife has often pointed out to me, I'm not clear much of the time. One, I don't think people realize how much Western culture has effected people in parts of the ME. like Iran. Here are some notes I took from a book a just read.

The Ayatollah in the Cathedral: Reflections of a Hostage [1986]
by Moorhead Kennedy

In contrast, the West, and particularly American culture, has long had powerful impact on the ME, penetrating every facet.

-Muslims give them all Bibles after a few days and have a priest come from US to give them Christmas service.

-The students loved giving the hostages religious material. They gave him Corrie Ten Boom's book who had been imprisoned by the Nazis for helping the Dutch Jews.

-We Americans can't understand the pangs our culture's impact has on their culture

"Like many others it the third world, Iranian revolutionaries were reluctant to admit that their country's problems were of their own doing; they preferred to blame foreigners--in this case, the US. so it was necessary for them to believe that the Shah had been our puppet and that the Embassy, under the shah, had been the "secret government of Iran." Accordingly, they saw the increase n the Embassy staff in sinister terms, arguing that we planned to use the embassy to return the shah to power, as the CIA had done in 1953."

Two,

The bad apples, from any facts and statistics I've seen produced, are really very small.

One, I don't think all the stuff about the Western impact on the Middle East is relevant to the concern brought up in the main ost. Two, the number of people doing this stuff obviously isn't "really very small" in England. And a small percent of a very large number can still be a very large number in absolute terms. As Jihad Watch put it recently, "Relax, there are only 91 million jihadists!"

Remember, too, that we're talking about a disjunction: The number of people who engage in jihad _or_ give money to jihadist organizations _or_ support mosques where jihad is preached _or_ refuse to wash their hands for medical work _or_ refuse to use alcohol-based hand sanitizer when visiting relatives in the hospital (yes, this has been a problem in England) _or_ demand that the entire class schedule of a university be changed to accommodate their prayer times (recently requested at a major U.S. university) _or_ demand taxpayer-funded religious foot baths (at several American major airports) _or_ commit honor killings _or_ take their daughters abroad to be genitally mutilated _or_...

And I'm not even done yet.

You put all that together and you have a lot more than a small problem.

Lydia,

I suppose our outlooks are persuaded by whom we choose to listen to. I'll put a list of reliable sources on my blog if anyone is interested.

I suppose our outlooks are persuaded by whom we choose to listen to. I'll put a list of reliable sources on my blog if anyone is interested.

Some of us try to form our outlooks based on facts.
Apparently it is an unknown approach for you.

So far you have demonstrated virtually total ignorance about Islam, Muslims in US and UK, immigration in general and Muslim immigration in particular.

So, how do you know if your sources are reliable?
In all your postings you produced not a single fact.
Do you even know how to test reliability of your sources?

One, I don't think people realize how much Western culture has effected people in parts of the ME.

Well, then, let's just dismantle our culture so's it won't bother anybody.

William,

All I was aiming at is for one to have a little empathy, and maybe to show a bit of where the nuttier sort are coming from. I rather like our culture and wouldn't want anyone to change it.

Russ,

Re the 'impact of our culture on middle east countries'. Middle eastern immigration to the UK is very low. I've seen this story and nowhere is it made particularly clear where these medical students come from.

But I'd give you pretty good odds they originate from the sub-continent, like the vast majority of UK-based Muslims. The middle east is not relevant here.

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