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What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: the Jihad and Liberalism...read more

The Fall of Saigon: April 30, 1975

It seems that treachery and murder are not rewarded.

Comments (16)

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

But what's your point?

My point is to commemorate the event, which I believe signifies not only the West's permanent softening toward Leftism of every kind, but also the loss of our vitality and confidence as a civilization. Secondarily, the disgusting betrayal of Ngo Dinh Diem - apart from being Machiavellian and vicious - was significant as a formal renunciation of even the appearance of supporting a Christian State. It's just a good reminder of where we are and the kinds of policies that are nowadays unthinkable.

Maybe that wasn't a direct enough answer. Here's the point: it is my belief that the American loss in Vietnam was, in some sense, divine justice. "To whom much is given, much shall be required."

Divine justice?

That's going to be a tough case to make, much like saying earthquakes are God's punishments to Islamic nations for rebellious women, or to Haiti for making a pact with the Devil.

I wonder just how close to blasphemy you've come by implying that God fights on the Communist side, and that in doing so He made the Cambodian killing fields possible.

Unless you're a prophet, let God speak for Himself about his role in Vietnam. If He declines to comment, you should too.

It hurt the Vietnamese a lot more than it hurt us. If one said that the assassination of Kennedy was permitted as divine retribution for his role in the assassination of Diem, that would be a bit more...in the zone, or something.

But Michael, everything evil that happens to us happens with God's permission, either as (a) punishment for our sins, or (b) medicinal suffering to draw us away from sin and increase our faith, hope, and love, or (c) an opportunity to merit grace for others, making up for what is lacking in the Body of Christ. And these are not exclusive: for most of us most of the time the evils that we suffer are both penal AND medicinal, and are always opportunities.

Furthermore, many of the evils that occur to us are simply the natural results of our evil choices, which God permits to come home to roost on our doorstep for His good reasons (such as a,b, and c above).

So it is not much of a stretch to suggest that the loss was God's Providence working out our salvation in His usual way: allowing the consequences of our own evil choices to visit us. But that is not to suggest any kind of SPECIAL divine anger that singled us out for a unique retribution.

Jeff,

As the resident neocon imperialist at W4, I'd say you are spot on with your first comment and suggest that our failure to stand up for the South Vietnamese early in that war has had all sorts of terrible ripple effects down to this day. Heck, I'd even say the French should have put up more of a fight. But as soon as I say this all the usual cast of characters will chime in and say that I'm twisting history, using the past to further my war-mongering future plans, etc., etc. So what's the point really? I'm just glad the current communist government in Vietnam actually seems to be more sensible than even the Chinese government and allows the Vietnamese people both economic freedom and some measure of personal freedom -- when they finally go back to calling Saigon by its proper name we know life will be O.K. over there.

From the linked article:

Madame Nhu, often known as the Dragon Lady, notoriously said that she would enjoy seeing more barbecues of Buddhists.

That Madame Nhu was my kind of chick.

It seems that treachery and murder are not rewarded.

Nor, apparently, are defending your country from invading Communist hordes bent on murder and enslavement.

Yay divine justice!

Tony wrote:

But Michael, everything evil that happens to us happens with God's permission, either as (a) punishment for our sins, or (b) medicinal suffering to draw us away from sin and increase our faith, hope, and love, or (c) an opportunity to merit grace for others, making up for what is lacking in the Body of Christ. And these are not exclusive: for most of us most of the time the evils that we suffer are both penal AND medicinal, and are always opportunities.

Furthermore, many of the evils that occur to us are simply the natural results of our evil choices, which God permits to come home to roost on our doorstep for His good reasons (such as a,b, and c above).

Yes, precisely. Thanks for spelling this out. It isn't presumption to look for God's reasons in permitting certain evils. He expects that from us. If Michael considers this blasphemous, he's going to find a lot of blasphemers among Christians over the centuries. He might start with the speeches and writings of the founding fathers, who understood the very biblical idea that God bestows or withholds His favor from nations according to their works.

So it is not much of a stretch to suggest that the loss was God's Providence working out our salvation in His usual way: allowing the consequences of our own evil choices to visit us.

Well said.

But that is not to suggest any kind of SPECIAL divine anger that singled us out for a unique retribution.

Actually, Tony, I am suggesting this possibility as well. The betrayal of Diem was unique in its malevolent villiany. His Christian government was mild, progressive (in the literal sense), effective, and administered with great love for the people of Vietnam. Contrary to the linked article, there was no persecution of Buddhists as Buddhists - the Diem administration didn't kill or burn any monks, and many of Diem's generals and high officials were also Buddhist - but there was necessary suppresion of communist activity within certain infiltrated Buddhist organizations. So, yes, I do suggest that the assassination may have been cause, in whole or in part, for a special chastisement in the form of a humiliating defeat for the United States. I certainly do not mean to say that a single event determined, by itself, the outcome of the war.

So how long until we see video images of American helicopters taking off from the roof of the US embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan to escape an ensuing Taliban takeover?

So how long until we see video images of American helicopters taking off from the roof of the US embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan to escape an ensuing Taliban takeover?

I doubt we'll see that: America's failure in Vietnam taught us, by negative example, how to lose a war without appearing to do so. We'll make a much better show of it Afghanistan: i.e., we'll appear to accomplish mission, pull out and leave plausible deniability to blame the certain future loss on our installed, and (surprise!) lately found corrupt, puppet.

Saying, as I do, that you are pretending to knowledge is not at all the same as denying Providence. No one is denying the Providence of God. I am denying your ability to read it.

So let's hear it, Jeff: What's your hermeneutic for reading history, your step-by-step procedure for tracing God's will, intentions, and actions from the course of political, economic and military events? I want evidence that your view isn't just pious fabrication posing as knowledge. Show us the method so that we can trace God's intentions too. And how does your method differ, if at all, from that of those who say God punished Haiti with an earthquake because it made a pact with the Devil, or that earthquakes come because of rebellious women? Can you tell me why a tsunami hit Aceh, and how you know? Theories abound; let's hear facts.

And since so many hearts and minds are wrapped up in the outcome, when the Yankees beat the Red Sox, is God punishing Massachusetts for being liberal?

And yes, there are lots of historicist blasphemers in the history of theology.

Saying, as I do, that you are pretending to knowledge is not at all the same as denying Providence. No one is denying the Providence of God. I am denying your ability to read it.

Deny away, then. I'm not claiming divine revelation here. What is it about "think", "suggest", "possibility", and "may have been" that you don't understand? It's speculation based upon the revealed knowledge that God rewards and punishes nations according to their deeds. I'm not losing any sleep over those who disagree.

And how does your method differ, if at all, from that of those who say God punished Haiti with an earthquake because it made a pact with the Devil ...

Did Haiti make a pact with the Devil? I don't have any idea, but if true that seems a pretty good reason for an earthquake.

That Madame Nhu was my kind of chick.

Me too, George. In fact my wife has the same name.

Coincidence? I think not.

You'll enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTR1aJD84tU&NR=1

Jeff, here's the Wiki article on the pact with the devil thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bois_Ca%C3%AFman

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